This episode of DB|BD features two extraordinary women from two seemingly different corners of the design world, Dionna Dorsey and Olivia Peebles. We say “seemingly” because, while they occupy different design disciplines, they approach their work in similar ways. They are both multidisciplinary designers with the hearts and souls of artists whose visuals bring to life what they and their collaborators know to be true about the world.
First up, we hear from Dionna Dorsey, who is running three design businesses at the same time! She has her own design firm called Dionna Dorsey Design, where she designs imagery and apparel for powerhouse organizations like Planned Parenthood. She is also the founder of District of Clothing, which is probably best known for those ubiquitous “Trust Black Women” t-shirts. She is also the CEO of Creative Ladder, an organization she co-founded with Ryan Reynolds and David Griner in 2022, that makes creative careers— advertising, marketing, branding, design — accessible to people from historically marginalized communities.
Dionna shares with hosts Ellen McGirt and Jessica Helfand why her values take front and center in her work.
“And I think if we think about some of our most iconic artists, that's what they do. They use their art to show the world the truth that they know to be true,” Dorsey explains. “For me, it was the District of Clothing, Trust Black Women, the partnership with Planned Parenthood. These were things that were said day in and day out in my house, growing up in all of my households…I didn't necessarily consider them political statements, I just considered them truthful statements”
Next up, Ellen and Jessica talk with Production Designer Olivia Peebles. Olivia has worked as a set decorator on some of the biggest films of the past few years, including Killers of the Flower Moon and Oppenheimer. Her first film as lead production designer, Exhibiting Forgiveness, premiered at Sundance this year. Exhibiting Forgiveness is written and directed by iconic American painter Titus Kaphar.
Peebles discusses how she, as a white woman, brings to life worlds and stories that are not her own.
“When you're dealing with someone else's story,” Peebles says, “I think you really need to be respectful of the fact that you're communicating that story. It's not your design. Your hand is not really meant to be seen.”
Peebles also shares how her training as a painter meshes with her career as a production designer and the opportunities and limitations A.I. poses to artists.
On this season of DB|BD, co-hosts Jessica Helfand and Ellen McGirt are observing equity by highlighting the “redesigners” — people who are addressing urgent problems by challenging big assumptions about how the world can and should work — and who it should work for.
This season of DB|BD is powered by Deloitte.
Visit our site for more on this episode and to view a transcript.
Titus Kaphar’s Ted Talk
Climate Central’s Urban Heat Hot Spots Study
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Episodes are produced by Design Observer’s editorial team. The views and opinions expressed by podcast speakers and guests are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of Deloitte or its personnel, nor does Deloitte advocate or endorse any individuals or entities featured on the episodes.
Transcript
Dionna Dorsey I also believe very strongly in using your art to share with the world the things that you know to be true, that they may not necessarily know to be true. I think if we think about some of our most iconic artists, that's what they do. For me, it was the District of Clothing, trust Black women, the partnership with Planned Parenthood, stand with Black women. These were things that were said day in and day out in my house growing up, I didn't necessarily consider them political statements, I just considered them truthful statements.
Ellen McGirt Welcome to the Design of Business,
Jessica Helfand The Business of Design.
Ellen McGirt Where we introduce you to people from all over the world, from different industries and disciplines,
Jessica Helfand who are here to talk about design, business, civility and the values that govern how we work and live together.
Ellen McGirt This season, we are observing equity.
Jessica Helfand I'm Jessica Helfand.
Ellen McGirt And I'm Ellen McGirt. This episode of The Design of Business | The Business of Design is powered by Deloitte's DEI Institute. Deloitte believes that bold actions can help drive equitable outcomes, and conversations like this can fuel the change needed to continue to build a more equitable society. Visit Deloitte's DEI Institute site at Deloitte dot com slash U.S. slash DEI Institute for more of their research and perspectives on equity. Later on, we'll hear from Kwasi Mitchell, Deloitte's chief purpose and DEI officer.
Ellen McGirt Hey Jessica.
Jessica Helfand Hey Ellen, we are back from our mid-summer hiatus with an episode that is, I would say, a little bit different from our regular fare.
Ellen McGirt That's right. Jessica, today we are bringing you two interviews with two extraordinary women in two seemingly different corners of the design world.
Jessica Helfand Oh, let's just stop on that word. Seemingly great word.
Ellen McGirt Right.
Jessica Helfand I know we're going to draw some unlikely parallels between these two women and the work that they do. And as you said just now, they are both extraordinary.
Ellen McGirt First up, we will hear from Dionna Dorsey. Dionna runs three different businesses, yes, at the same time. She has her own design firm called Dionna Dorsey Design, where she designs imagery and apparel for powerhouse organizations like Planned Parenthood. But she's also the founder of District of Clothing, which is probably best known for those ubiquitous trust Black women t shirts. And let me take a breath here, she is the CEO of Creative Ladder, an organization that she co-founded with Ryan Reynolds and David Griner in 2022, and that makes creative careers like advertising, marketing, branding, and all that related design accessible to people from historically marginalized communities.
Jessica Helfand And it's that Ryan Reynolds, correct.
Ellen McGirt The one that likes gin. /laughs
Jessica Helfand /laughs. The one and only. What's not to love? It's a feat to just wrap my mind around what you just said, how Dionna juggles all three of these things at once. But after talking to her, it's pretty clear she does so thoughtfully, with so much grace and with so much of the mind and spirit of a true artist.
Ellen McGirt That's exactly right. As she said in the quote at the top of the episode, she believes that the role of the artist is to show the world what they know to be true, and she does that, in the clothing she designs and the campaigns she puts together, and in the support she provides up and coming designers.
Jessica Helfand And it's that belief that she has in common with our second guest, she's a production designer called Olivia Peeples. Olivia's worked as a set decorator on some of the biggest films of the past few years, including Killers of the Flower Moon and Oppenheimer. Her first film as lead production designer premiered this year at Sundance.
Ellen McGirt And that film is Exhibiting Forgiveness, written and directed by the iconic American artist and painter Titus Kaphar, who Jessica happens to know.
Jessica Helfand /laughs. Well I do know Titus, just a little. I'm going to hold on to that story of how we met until later in the episode, when we will also hear from Olivia on how she made what Titus knows to be truly visible on screen.
Ellen McGirt I'm always holding on tight for a Jessica story, but first, let's hear more from Dionna on her approach to design, making design careers accessible to everyone, and why eating cereal and watching Arthur is one of her favorite creative rituals.
Jessica Helfand And before we jump in, I just want to tease one thing for our audience— dogs do show up in both of these interviews.
Ellen McGirt /laughs. That's right. It's going to be a theme today. Without further ado, here is our interview with Dionna Dorsey featuring her dog, Coco La Rue.
Jessica Helfand There's so many questions we want to ask you about your incredible multi-hyphenate design career, but this one just jumped out at me. I read that you started out at Villanova, which is not a go to place in my mind for design. Now, I realize that you went from there to Italy and to New York and to wonderful ports of call. But I wonder if you could tell us, what did you study Villanova, and how did you get into design?
Dionna Dorsey Yes. First, thank you so much for having me. It's lovely to meet you, Jessica. And so good to see you again, Ellen. Wow, that really just took me back. I can recall very vividly, driving by Villanova as early as maybe 1990, so I was ten-ish, I believe I think that that was my first understanding of college. And I would just say: Oh, Auntie, I'm going to go there. And I just, I saw I could see the kids, like crossing over Lancaster Avenue, saw the big, beautiful buildings. It was just lots of green grass and it was near family. And, she said, I had a very direct statement like, I'm going to go there. Fast forward, I- this was the time, so I graduated in 1998. And at that time, you're still taking the SATs and you're still applying by hand — lord have mercy — and it is by no means a school for design. I had a wonderful liberal arts education there. I think I had a lovely, like life, experience in the city of Philadelphia as well as in the suburbs of Philadelphia. And I can remember telling my dad-telling my dad, at orientation when they were dropping me off that I was going to study communication. And he's like, kid, you've been talking your whole life.
Jessica Helfand /laughs.
Dionna Dorsey I'm not paying X amount of dollars for you to keep talking, like we're going to study finance and you're going to be pre-law. I-that situation letter later helped me with with what I do now, honestly. But it was really tough to tell him, no, I want to study communication.
Ellen McGirt Let's fast forward to today because you are in charge of not one, but two, but three extraordinary brands, extraordinary design experiences that are that are related, interconnected, but sort of distinct. So let's start with just having you tell us the three things that you're associated with.
Dionna Dorsey Okay. So one is Dionna Dorsey design, which I also called DD Design. That's my my brand and design consultancy that I've had since 2010. Dionna Dorsey Design was birthed out of desperation and survival. In 2014, my prime client from Dionna Dorsey Design went on a spending freeze. And at that time, everyone's listening to podcasts and everyone's listening to Oprah, and everyone's just sort of, like, very tuned in to, figuring out ways to have multiple ways to have income. And, District of Clothing came to be the night of Thanksgiving night, actually. But it started from a dream like the very beginning of January in 2014. And then I was, brought to the table with The Creative Ladder in the Fall of 2020, 2020, which was so wild that that was just four years ago. Like, what a time.
Ellen McGirt I know.
Dionna Dorsey Right? What a time.
Ellen McGirt Yes, yes.
Dionna Dorsey Oh my gosh. And it finally launched in June of 2022. And The Creative Ladder is a it's a nonprofit, for underrepresented creatives to help them essentially climb the creative ladder.
Jessica Helfand Let's start with that last one that you mentioned, because there's so many pieces, and I want to make sure I hold on to them because they're so interesting. Can you tell us about your partners and how the three of you decided that this was something that you were going to do together?
Dionna Dorsey For sure. My partners are Ryan Reynolds. Yes that Ryan Reynolds.
Jessica Helfand /laughs.
Dionna Dorsey And I always have to say to folks, like that Ryan Reynolds? Yes. And David Griner. Ryan Reynolds is, a wonderful human with a heart that is probably the size of his head times two, and is what I'd like to say. And David Griner is mostly known as ad dad. He was once the editor of Adweek, and, he's now taking a, pivot in his career, and he's now baking, and he's in Alabama. And-
Ellen McGirt Listeners should follow his Instagram because when she says baking, she means baking bread. Like he's actually baking.
Dionna Dorsey Baking bread.
Ellen McGirt It's it's hilarious for for any for industry insiders who already followed him and read Adweek, it was a big part of how a lot of us functioned. This has been a delightful pivot, but he did show up at Cannes this year with you. A couple of things that I just want to mention because I've interviewed you, before and during sort of like the waning moments of the bad part of the pandemic, because when we first talked. And so that memory of that terrible time was so fresh. And I don't think I dug in with you enough about why you were the perfect choice for this. And let me just set this up because you strike me as a person who's not going to brag on yourself in the way that you should. So here's how it breaks down in my mind. You have extraordinary design chops, you chose — this is the theme that I think is going to get their attention— you chose to work co-work and spaces with other women who were creative, who are in business. So you are well known to a community, and then the first chance you had when things started to retract a little bit for you from a business wise, was to launch a purpose driven apparel brand that had a very specific hat tip to the very community that Ryan and David, if I may call them that, also care about. So in a funny way, it wasn't just like a bolt out of the blue. It actually was the thing that you hope will always happen if you work very hard. I know you're a spiritual person. If you if you reflect on your journey and you reflect on your purpose, good things will come. And Jessica, this is a story of good things coming to the right person at the right time. I'm convinced.
Jessica Helfand It is. It is.
Ellen McGirt And Coco LaRue is convinced to hold her up to the camera.
[dog growling].
Ellen McGirt I woke her up. We could hear her snoring.
Jessica Helfand /laughs.
Dionna Dorsey I was going to say anything. I wasn't sure I was like, I hope you all can't hear her snoring, but it's okay. It's okay.
Ellen McGirt /laughs.
Dionna Dorsey Thank you so much. You know, I was, at a photoshoot over the weekend, and there was a woman there who I hadn't yet-hadn't not yet met. And she, after I introduced myself, she said: Oh, you know, what do you do? Or we were being, honored, taking a photoshoot of, like, women who are doing a lot of things in the community here in Washington, DC. And as Ellen stated, I'm not really one for talking much about myself, but she said, you know, tell me what you do. And I said: Oh, I'm an entrepreneur. And I had two friends who, know me fairly well, one who really knows me very well, and she just kind of chuckled and I said, I-I have a nonprofit and I like to support my community, and I try to do that through a creative means, a creative lens. And she said: Oh, so what's your purpose? And I, I don't know if anyone had ever just asked me like that, just so on the spot. And I said, I think that I've had several different purposes over the course of life. And the common thread seems to be wellness, encouragement, purpose, and creativity. And I don't know how it will all continue, but, I had another just reflective moment when you were saying some of those things. Ellen, you know, we're-we're so often taught to just as women, especially as Black women, it's like, do the work, move on to the next thing, do the work, move on to the next thing. And I'm trying to unlearn some things and, remove some of the miseducation that I've learned over the years and trying to focus on, always the good and always what's next, but also trying to be more present and and the victories.
Jessica Helfand I want to read a quote from you that I found so charming, and this is the cereal moment. I want to talk about the breakfast ccereal moment, because this was so charming to me. Here you are, this, you know, powerhouse starting three different companies. But this is the quote: "Every Saturday morning," you write, "I poured a mountain of cereal and sank into a sea of cartoons, all the stories and colors flashing across the screen. Pure childhood bliss. I'm always chasing that feeling." I found this just so marvelously charming and disarming, and at the core of it, that you have such an intense memory of of your own childhood joy and innocence and curiosity and bravery and interest in the world. I was hoping you could talk to us about that, perhaps specifically in terms of, of, the District of Clothing, because I think this is something that you came to and, invented for yourself, but really, for the rest of us.
Dionna Dorsey You know, it's such a it's such a beautiful world, and it's filled with a lot of heaviness, and a lot of things weigh us down. And right now it's just really it's-it's tough out here, right, for all humans. And it's tougher for some humans, for sure. And I just- I'm a very blessed person. I've, I feel, I feel goodness and joy most days. But if you think about your childhood, I, we were so often just rushing to get to the next thing or like, adulthood or, you know, we want to be in college or we want to be in high school or we want to we-we always wanted we were always focusing on something else and not realizing that that was just the happiest of happy times. And when I think about, like, you know, you wake up in the morning, what's the first thing you do? You're looking at your calendar and you're like, oof, this is going to be a doozy of a day. Well part of the way that I can get through that doozy of a day is knowing that at the end of the day, I'm going to sit down. I'm not going to have cereal anymore, per se, but I might have some dried mango and watch Arthur,
Jessica Helfand /laughs.
Dionna Dorsey Like I'm still going to sit on my couch and watch a little bit of cartoons because it just, it feels good and it feels it's like a return to, just a moment to be still. I mean, when I think about my childhood, I often think about how much Sesame Street means to me. And that's my, like, lifelong dream is to be on Sesame Street.
Ellen McGirt Put it out there, girl. Put it out there.
Dionna Dorsey I could cry thinking about. It's my biggest dream ever.
Ellen McGirt We'll make some calls, Jessica.
Dionna Dorsey /laughs. I don't know why I am tearing up. But if you if you think about how good it made you feel. I don't know, it's been like, if you think about how tough life has been since 2020, it's like, just put on some cartoons or whatever that might be for you to just go find some joy. And, I use that to, like, encourage myself to give me a moment to just be still. Because the day, just like, how do you wake up and then the next thing you know, it's like time to go to sleep and wake up again. Like, what? What the heck? It is just the days go by so quickly and, I believe very strongly in chasing childhood joy. And then I also believe very strongly in, using your art to share with the world the things that you know to be true, that they may not necessarily know to be true. And I think if we think about some of our most iconic artists, that's what they do. They use their art to show the world the truth that they know to be true. For me, it was District of Clothing, trust Black women, the partnership with Planned Parenthood, stand with Black women. These are things that were said day in and day out in my house, growing up in all of my households, whether I was with my mom, my grandmother, my aunts, my cousins, my uncles, you name it. And it just so happened to be that I was putting these these positive messages, these encouraging messages. I didn't necessarily consider them political statements, I just considered them truthful statements. And 2020 happened and they met the moment. And I am deeply grateful that the people who are out, the activists, the people who are out day in and day out, whether they were like in Washington D.C. Or even in their own city protesting, or if they were just taking their kids to the grocery store or to the corner walking their dog, whatever that they felt encouraged enough and connected enough with my apparel to wear those things, to share with the world what they knew to be true, or what they believe to be true during that time.
Ellen McGirt And I have a I have a my District hat in New York. So I didn't I didn't I wasn't able to wear it for the podcast, but you you it's how you find each other in the world. You know, you feel a little less alone. And the poignant part of that is that that's what you're doing with Creative Ladder. Now you're in the business of doing that for lots of people, as opposed to just the person who the many, many, many people who buy your shirt or your hat or your tote. Two questions there:Oone is what would you have needed as you were coming up as a designer that you didn't have, that creative ladder is now providing for people coming up in a variety of creative fields.
Dionna Dorsey Ooof! So many things. Thank you for this question. I still don't have a mentor. And I think a part of that I've had business adjacent mentors but never an absolute mentor. And I'm finally coming to the understanding that that's because some of the things that I'm doing and putting together, they haven't been done in the same way.
Ellen McGirt Right, it is unusual. This is an unusual path.
Dionna Dorsey So we're just trying to build, a sense of community. I call it like almost like a mesh sense of community so that no matter where you might go, if you're leaving this job and going to another city, you can create, some sort of community through-through the folks are at The Creative Ladder. Also trying to provide opportunities and options and letting people know, one, that these jobs exist. So we do a lot of work in high school students, with high school students where, we've partnered with for both Work & Co and Wieden+Kennedy to create this just one of a kind amazing —I'll share it with you all — presentation. So we give the students, access to the career quiz, where they it's sort of like a, Myers-Briggs for creative jobs. And so they take the quiz and it helps them understand where their personality leads and it tells them about these different types of jobs. And then we also provide opportunities to college students where we sort of help connect the dots. So you're sitting in class, you're 20, 19, 20, 21 years old. You're hearing your professor talk day in and day out about these jobs, but it's not really making sense. We try to bring in what I call superheroes from the local cities, to come in and talk about the work that they're doing, what I call the local superheroes, look and or have some sort of familiar background to the college students, and they let them know that they have this job in their particular city and what they're doing. And you can literally see the, like, their eyes opening like: Oh, that's what my professor was discussing with regards to account management or creative direction or what have you. And then also hopefully that leads to conversations which could potentially lead to internships, for them as well. And then for our rising leaders, that's who we call our folks who have been working in the first ten years of their career, we provide them with the opportunity to meet whenever we have our bootcamps in their coun-cities, excuse me, as well as our summits. Our next bootcamp will be in Chicago.
Jessica Helfand I'm still grappling with the idea that this is only 30% of what you do. Because you just described, like a full time job for 23,000 people. I mean, and so smart. And so I'm so interested in the contextual scaling of these communities and age groups. And your sociology training clearly has, has borne out to be a useful thing. I wonder if I can, ask you a different, slightly different question. You said in a 2023 interview with the Wall Street Journal that, this is the quote, "lack of diversity isn't caused by a talent deficit. It's an opportunity deficit". Wonderful, again, contextualization of just what what the problem is here. I wonder if you could talk to us a little bit about how Creative Ladder is closing that deficit. And as you've, as you're as you're scaling up, what impact are you starting to see as you go through these bootcamps and these, these various events, and initiatives.
Dionna Dorsey With regard to the talent deficit. I think one part of the part-part of the opportunity is just even knowing that these jobs exist. So if your mom, dad, uncle, guardian was in advertising and marketing, it's very possible you might know about these jobs. Whereas we're going into some of these schools, we, kick things off here in Washington DC at KIPP. And many of the students did not know that these jobs existed. There is even times when you're working and you did not know that the person in the cubicle next to you, that their job existed. I think we have, some stats and forgive me, I can provide you the absolute data, but I think it's 78% of nonwhite creatives did not know that there- that are working in advertising and marketing, did not know that their jobs existed when they graduated high school. So again, it's about having opportunity access and, and communication where you're actually just talking about these jobs. These aren't things that a lot of Black and Brown parents are saying: Oh yeah, go be a marketing director, go into marketing. It's like, no, for me. You know what I said: Hey Dad, I'm going to be studying communication and I want to go to fashion design school. And he's like, you want to talk and cut and color, like, what are we doing here? I did not do all of this work for you to talk cut and cut color. Like, that's literally what he said, cut and color. And so often times, and it's understandable you want to create the you work so hard, you want to create the pathway forward for your child or for your family member that you think could be the most possible. And so letting students know that these jobs exist, letting students know about the trajectory in some of these jobs. And let's be clear, advertising and marketing, these people are getting paid exceptionally well. I just came back from Cannes, and you should see the things that, you know, folks are doing. The swag, right.
Jessica Helfand /laughs.
Dionna Dorsey And so it's one is really just letting people know that these jobs exist and, and really helping students know, especially at that 9—th, 10th, 11th grade level, that, a lot of the things that they inherently do and are thinking, if you look at the work that these and I say this with the utmost respect kids are doing on TikTok?
Ellen McGirt It's extraordinary. It's extraordinary.
Dionna Dorsey It's extraordinary! I had problems just logging into here, you know?
Ellen McGirt /laughs.
Dionna Dorsey So it's like it's extraordinary.
Ellen McGirt No, you're you're saying something really profound is that the people who are making the money marketing to your community are not from your community. And there are extraordinary things and perspectives about your community that you can be brought forward, if you one knew about these jobs, knew that you were going to be welcome in these jobs, knew who to talk to. And then for your rising executive program, if you had people there who were making sure the ground was fertile for them to grow there, and they were surviving this thing, that's-that's to Jessica's point. You're really taking the whole pipeline and you're caring about the whole thing. I think I think that's what makes and it's a nonprofit, which, you know, makes it kind of an interesting conversation to have.
Jessica Helfand I wonder, other than your guest starring role on Sesame Street, what you dream of doing next?
Dionna Dorsey I don't know if I've said this out loud yet. I want to write a book.
Ellen McGirt Oh!
Jessica Helfand I got chills.
Ellen McGirt Yes!
Dionna Dorsey I do. I want to write. I want to write a book.
Ellen McGirt Is it a coloring book?
Dionna Dorsey It's not a coloring book. Although I would love to do a coloring book in the future for adults, not necessarily for children. I wanted to do an adult coloring book for a very long time.
Ellen McGirt Me too.
Dionna Dorsey have a story there too, if we have a couple of seconds. I was the the first aunt who was super supportive of me being a creative, which again, like in 1995, 1996, no one really knew what this meant. But, was my aunt and she would even I feel like even up to my 30s, she would buy me crayons and coloring books and markers. And, Dorsey is what I call my Dad, he thought there was something wrong with me. So he was worried that I was like, still, you know, a teenager, 16, and then I'm watching cartoons and then I'm coloring. And he just was really worried about my, my growth until he read in the Washington Post that, the Capitol therapists were was telling the Congress people to watch cartoons and to color. And then he just started buying me coloring books all the time. He's like, keep telling me, keep coloring. Yeah.
Jessica Helfand Oh, I love that.
Dionna Dorsey Oh, no. I was supposed to be.
Jessica Helfand Affirmed by an act of Congress. I love it.
Ellen McGirt Every time I talk to you, I learn a new fact. What's the other thing?
Dionna Dorsey I want to buy a vintage Porsche.
Jessica Helfand There's still time.
Ellen McGirt Did not expect that. Okay.
Dionna Dorsey That will be like my reward for myself. Maybe in ten years.
Ellen McGirt Well in ten years. You're going to come pick us up and we are going to go for a ride — in a better world. In a better world that's been redesigned because of all of the underrepresented creatives who are now wending their way through the system with their unique perspectives and their purpose driven points of view. Who are making things better for everyone because of the work you all did.
Dionna Dorsey Thank you.
Ellen McGirt Thanks to Deloitte for sponsoring today's episode. I'm here with Kwasi Mitchell. Deloitte's chief purpose and dye officer. Hey, Kwasi. Thanks for being here today.
Kwasi Mitchell It's good to be here, Ellen
Ellen McGirt Kwasi, according to Deloitte's recent research, when workers don't feel like they can be their authentic selves at work, it can have negative effects on them and their organizations. Can you tell us more about this concept of covering and why it's a critical piece of inclusive culture?
Kwesi Mitchell Ellen, this is critical work that we've been studying for over ten years. And first and foremost, I want to explain what we mean by covering. And this is a situation where people feel they need to downplay one of their disavowed or disfavored identities to fit into the mainstream of corporate culture.
Ellen McGirt Mhhhm.
Kwasi Mitchell If you think about that, leaving an aspect of yourself at home or external to your work environment, it leads to lack of connection with the organization. What's truly fascinating is when we watch how that plays out, when people are interacting with the C-suite.
Ellen McGirt Ah.
Ellen McGirt And so as you have your employees interacting with members of their C-suite, you find this notion of them covering more and being in this position where they don't bring their authentic selves to work.
Ellen McGirt So that sounds like a real opportunity for someone who's a senior management or senior leader who's interacting with other people. What can they do with that moment?
Kwesi Mitchell First and foremost, start by examining what are the environments that's encouraging covering, right. How do you look at yourself and pull down those particular barriers as an organization? The other thing is quite simple. Share your experiences, right. There is so many times that just by having a leader share their individual stories, it creates a sense of allyship and belonging, making space for others and their stories.
Ellen McGirt Kwasi, thank you so much for being here today.
Kwesi Mitchell Thank you for the opportunity, Ellen. It's been a pleasure.
Ellen McGirt Now we're going to pivot to our interview with Olivia. But first, to understand our conversation with her. You have to know a little bit about Titus Kaphar. Jessica, will you do the honors? Who is Titus and how would you describe his really amazing art?
Jessica Helfand Titus Kaphar, is a MacArthur Award winning painter. Our listeners may know of this important kind of seminal moment for him and for so many of us, when he gave a Ted talk in which he showed on the screen as he was talking, I don't remember the artist. We can maybe put it in our show notes, but he basically showed a classical painting about white imperialist power in which, like an 18th century painting, I want to say like a 17th, 18th early painting, very classical, very large. In the background were people of color. And as he was talking, he whitewashed the painting. So the only people you saw with people of color, he did it in a way that was so powerful, but so graceful, not vindictive, not finger pointing, just visual. I mean, that is what the power of using your capacity as a maker of things can do. Hebut it was really an extraordinary moment.
Ellen McGirt But Titus, as an African-American man who works in a very specific medium, in a very specific way, really presents himself to the world and presents possibilities in the art world that are, in my view, breakthrough and unusual. Now he's taking those skills and that point of view to the to the world of film. Olivia Peebles was the production designer on Titus's debut film, Exhibiting Forgiveness. It is a semi-autobiographical film that follows Tarrell, an artist played by André Holland, whose life is upended by the return of his estranged father. Jessica, I know, I know that you know Titus a little bit. In fact, you met him in kind of a funny way.
Jessica Helfand I met him in a funny way. It was a very hot day in August. I was standing in line at the UPS store mailing something to my sister in England, and the line was really long, and the one person at the desk was really slow.
Ellen McGirt Aww.
Jessica Helfand And people who know me well know that patience isn't one of my primary virtues. In fact, it's not a virtue at all.
Ellen McGirt /laughs. I would not say that.
Jessica Helfand I do not possess. I my my my RPMs tend to run a little too fast for that. And I must have sighed deeply when the very lovely man standing behind me in line said, how long have you been waiting? And I turned to him, and I said, oh, since last April. And he burst out laughing, put out his hand, and said, I'm Titus Kaphar. Who were you?
Ellen McGirt Oh my goodness. That's funny, that's funny.
Jessica Helfand He is on top of his many other gifts. The man is very charming.
Ellen McGirt I love that, I love that. So what was so interesting to us about Olivia and her process is that she's a white woman. And Titus Kephart is a Black man who wrote a story about a Black family. She also worked on the film Miss Juneteenth, about a Black woman and her daughter. And as we mentioned earlier, Killers of the Flower Moon and the Osage tribe. So we were really curious to know how she approached designing a world that is not her own.
Jessica Helfand According to Olivia, to do so thoughtfully and responsibly requires a lot of collaboration and observation.
Ellen McGirt See, and that's the thing. Olivia was really thoughtful about everything we talked about, including how her training as a painter meshes with her career as a production designer and how she'll choose her next project. But really, it's all about trust, isn't it? Building trust.
Jessica Helfand It is. And we had this lovely, unexpected and quite deep conversation about the use of artificial intelligence in art as a tool, something that I use in my own painting practice.
Ellen McGirt I know she was really a kindred spirit of yours and I could feel it. So let's jump in. Here's our conversation with production designer Olivia Peebles.
Jessica Helfand Oh, and for those paying attention at home, her dog's name is Vinnie, by the way.
Ellen McGirt Yes. And with her dog, Vinnie.
Jessica Helfand Ellen, if you don't mind, I'm gonna jump in because, I was — okay, this is a quick anecdote. I'm in Providence, Rhode Island, and some friends from L.A. are here shooting a film. The director is a seasoned director. His partner has never been on a film set before. And she was telling me the other night about the complexity and detail and level of fastidious, meticulous. You know, they're shooting a movie that's shot in the 90s, and this sort of scattered magazines on the table are all from the 90s, every single thing. And I was reading about you this morning, Olivia, and I was wondering if you could begin — I have many questions to ask you, not nearly enough time to ask them — but I wonder if you could begin by just helping me and helping our listeners understand. Based on your experience, what is the difference between a set designer and a set decorator and a prop master and an art director? I mean, I have no idea what what these and it sounds to to me, like you've had many, if not all of these.
Olivia Peebles Jobs, not quite all of them, but but a number of them. So a production designer is the key, the department head. That person is hired based on their research, their lookbook. Often they've they've already sort of started to establish a visual language or their ideas for how a movie should look, prior to getting the job. And then that person is the liaison between the director and then the entire art department and set decoration department. So set decorator deals with furnishings, practical lighting, wallpaper choice, sometimes materials like hardware and flooring for a set build. Really just that the things that come into the space sort of after the space has existed. An art director deals with construction, scenic graphics, so that person is often working with a set designer, who will draw up that person, aids the art director in, in the execution of drawing up a set, basically. So it often people confuse a set designer and a set decorator, but they actually are pretty different positions. One is working under the art director. And, and then the set decorators is running a whole set dressing crew. Who else? Then we have a prop master. A prop master, deals with things that an actor will interact with. And then they that also extends to like dealing with, picture cards. And then there's some collaboration and coordination with costumes, with, handbags and eyewear. And it really it, it kind of everyone's role shifts job by job depending how people like to work. Like there are some pretty set standard rules, but there's always communication. And some people like to have more control over certain things. And some people feel like, you know, it's their strong suit and their and their passion is dealing with a specific thing where there's a little overlap. Then often they'll ask to take that on and there's always a conversation.
Jessica Helfand So you studied painting in college. How did you get from there into production design?
Olivia Peebles It was accidental. I graduated and got a studio with a couple of my friends. And I needed to figure out how to pay rent. So I was working in restaurants, and I eventually started working for a former neighbor of ours growing up who we grew up in the same building, who does set design for editorial and stills work. And I could not believe how fun it was. We were crafting, we were sourcing things, and we were creating these mini worlds. But it was more for commercial. And I had friends who had gone to film school who said, that sounds like what you're doing is really similar to what we're doing. You might enjoy working in film, and that is I was hooked after that. I think one thing that I really appreciated about it was that it was a much less solitary way to have a creative career. And at the time, I also believed that it was more stable way to have a creative career. But, hey, I got a pension, at least I know, you know, but but the collaboration was definitely a big part of it for me. And, and being with people on a daily basis.
Ellen McGirt So we, we have a million questions for you, but I thought we could start with, Exhibiting Forgiveness. Because that's the thing that the most recent, work that you've done and it's seems to be gaining traction. It seems to be I think it's going to be one for the ages. Can you tell us a little bit about the production, and then we'll dig into, how you were able to bring those characters to life?
Olivia Peebles Absolutely. I was so fortunate to get to work on that film. It came at a time for me that, I think I really needed to be reconnected with a visual artist. So Exhibiting Forgiveness is directed by Titus Kaphar who is a world renowned painter. You know, he's got work at the Met. He's got some work at Gagosian right now. And I-I come from a background of painting, and I had been feeling a little bit disconnected from the film industry after Covid, things were getting increasingly challenging. There were major discrepancies on almost every project that I'd done with budget and expectations. And I got to read Titus's script. And I it it was so moving to me, I couldn't stop thinking about it after I read it. It it's loosely based on his life. Though the main character, Tarrell, is very much a fictional character, but it it follows the story of this young Black painter, who's worked very hard to escape generational trauma, through creating a career as a visual artist and, creating a safe space for his family as he's raising his son and also, his estranged father, who struggles with drug addiction, comes back into his life. It deals with how this character navigates raising a son, being a son, and exploring. I mean, truly it does explore what is forgiveness and how do you forgive, and what does the forgiveness mean to each individual? It was it was really like, an unparalleled experience to work with Titus and that team of producers. Everyone was a creative, and everyone had a voice, which doesn't always get to happen because sometimes you're stuck with logistics and, you know, you have restraints, budgetary time. There's so many things, so many factors that come into play that don't necessarily allow you to have the voice that you'd like to have, and everybody was listening. It was really a lot of workshopping happening. When we were location scouting, every day in the scout van, we would talk about character. We'd talk about the script. We would talk about what things we felt, how each of us reacted to certain elements that we read in the story. And, you know, Titus, we would sort of talk through the importance of certain scenes and, how we felt audiences would react and what they meant to us. And it was really a special experience.
Ellen McGirt That's incredible. I'm going through your your, your resume here. You were on the creative teams of, Killers of the Flower Moon, which centered centers on the Osage tribe. Miss Juneteenth, which is a wonderful film, more people should see it about a Black woman and her and her and her daughter. And these eclectic and diverse teams come together. And it's your job to bring these characters to life. How have you learned to navigate the-the preparation, the work that it takes to tell stories different from your own and to work from people who are different from you?
Olivia Peebles I always go back to, learning how to respect the story and the character. As an observer, a researcher and an artist. And I think that. Research is an integral part of the process. For me, it's it's sort of how I explore a story in the same way that I'll, you know, choosing a paint color. You throw a color up on the wall, you respond to it, you you process it, you throw something else up. You spend two days looking at it in different light. I treat characters the same way and information and research. So I'll start diving into research and one thing leads to another and you fall down a rabbit hole. And I think it's important to make sure that you have a diverse number of sources, you know, including sometimes oral history. But yeah, when you're dealing with someone else's story, I think you really need to be respectful of the fact that you're communicating that story is not it's not your design. You shouldn't-your hand is is not really meant to be seen. And, and trust that you're speaking to the right people and looking at the right things and, yeah, really, just be be confident in your research.
Ellen McGirt I'm really struck by the difference in, the difference between coming to a project with a vision. This is what I think Tarrell should look like and fighting for that, because that is how most people, traditionally, in a variety of industries, have pitched their ideas. You're just going to go to battle. And the difference that you just described was we have come together. We take time to get to know each other. We respect the expertise that is brought to the table. And we had discovered through that kind of intimate work that we have a shared common language that we can build on. And then suddenly my vision for Tarrell was the character we nurture. And exhibiting forgiveness becomes our vision for Tarrell . And that vision no longer has an author.
Olivia Peebles That's exactly it. It really what I fight for the most in terms of my vision is, is making sure that the language is correct. So I will have countless conversations with the director. You know, Titus and I had a Google doc going and in the middle of the night, if I come up with a question, I put it in there and he would respond. And we'd always we had a lot of back and forth. We just texted text each other images sometimes that spoke to us. So it, it gave me, confidence in that-I, we were speaking the same language and then, then it's my responsibility to communicate that to my incredible team of people who make things happen, you know, because I now it's my responsibility. We all feel like we understand. But but now it's about the actual execution. And I think bringing bringing the director into that as you're going is something that I like to do as well. I liked, I like to in the office, I will plaster the walls with all of the research. And so everybody is living in it and feeling it. And the movie is with you subconsciously. And, and that'll bring those boards to the locations when we're dressing the sets so that, you know, the set dressers, who these these are people who take direction from the set decorator, but they often get to do a lot of creative work themselves just in placement of objects. And I like to encourage many minds to explore. And I can react, but I think it helps create a more cohesive vision in that it's, it's more grounded in reality. It's not just one person's understanding.
Jessica Helfand It's funny because, I mean, it's a certainly a collaborative premise to make a film. We've all heard horror stories about, you know, the, the, the diva director or the diva this or the the power hungry, mad person— it seems to me, and I'm guessing Ellen's going to agree that nothing you're telling us would lead us to suggest that your personality type is that at all, like, ever, that you're very welcoming and you have built a community of peers and colleagues and collaborators. And it sounds to me like Titus is that way also. But would you have any way of knowing that when you're when you're considering taking on a project, how important is what you've just described to us, this community of peers, this collective that you build, while-you're for the duration of the production?
Olivia Peebles At this point in my career, it's essential. When I first started, you know, you're navigating it and you don't quite understand. I would I was just so excited to be working and that somebody trusted me to execute a vision. But at this point, I've worked on some projects that are tough. They take a lot out of you. And as creatives, it's really hard to have an off switch once your brain starts going. You know, I feel like I'm permanently in the flow state for 3 to 6 months. However long the project is, you, you're existing in the world. And–
Jessica Helfand That explains why your dog is so chill.
Ellen McGirt I know sweet Vinnie.
Olivia Peebles You know, I found him in on Killers of the Flower Moon, actually.
Ellen McGirt Really?
Olivia Peebles Yeah.
Jessica Helfand You did?
Olivia Peebles I brought him home.
Jessica Helfand He's a Killers of the Flower Moon rescue.
Ellen McGirt From Oklahoma? Good boy
Olivia Peebles He's an Oklahoma boy. Oh. Yeah, he does have to ride around in the car with me a lot and deal with all sorts of situations.
Ellen McGirt Did he meet Martin Scorsese?
Jessica Helfand /laughs
Olivia Peebles I'm trying to think I, I don't know if they ever had any interactions. I try to keep him off set as much as possible.
Ellen McGirt Right I get it, I get it. It sounds like technology in a surprising way, helps you build these relationships and these understandings more quickly. Something as simple as a Google doc having permission to text someone an impulsive image. I see the scene in this color. That kind of thing seems really helpful. Are you finding that there's other, is there- is there anything in the future of technology? Typically we ask about AI, but that is going to that. It's going to help rather than hurt the creative process?
Olivia Peebles I have been trying to have a very open outlook on AI. A lot of my collaborator-collaborators and I talk about it constantly, but it's something that's here. It's something that's here to stay, at least for now. And I think that what I try and remember is that it's a, it's a tool. It's a tool made by humans. And, I actually I went to this panel at Sundance this year, about AI and one of the moderate or one of the speakers was saying that, she referred to it out there was a really hilarious acronym, SALAMI. I don't remember what it stood for, but she said it took away some of the intimidating characteristics of AI as this thing that's going to come in and take your job. And shockingly, after hearing SALAMI for half an hour, it really felt different. It reminded me, this is this is a tool that's meant for good. And artists historically have to think outside the box with tools and different media and figure out how we can use them to our advantage. So I've been trying to play with it a little bit. I will mess with Midjourney now sometimes if I'm making a lookbook and it is absolutely incredible, what can you can get as a result. Like if I spend an hour and a half wiggling around different terms. And, you know, sometimes I'll use terms like, photographers or writers or spaces that I'm familiar with and see how they impact the image. And sometimes in an hour I've got something that was exactly what was in my head with the AI weirdness. I mean, of course, there's sort of a lot of these images have the same tone and esthetic, but as something that you can pair with a lot of other research, it it can be an extremely helpful tool for me in that sense.
Jessica Helfand As a sketching tool. You've just described my entire daily life in the studio, and it's a conversation I want to have with you separately, because I've had very similar experience with how cultural references oddly resonate with an algorithm like a TV show, like it understands it-it knows film and television more than it knows art history, for example.
Olivia Peebles I think about that feeling, you know, I referenced the flow state earlier, but it's something that I, I really feel a lot when I'm working. And it started as a feeling I recognized when I was making paintings more regularly. But you, you lose sense of time. You don't pay attention to these bodily functions. You may have not eaten for six hours, but you're so happy. And that makes- that's the world I want to live in. I want to experience those feelings and I'm sure AI will- it is taking away people's jobs. It will take away people's jobs. Absolutely. And I think we have to figure out how to respond and get what we need from our human experience, from the experience of life, you know?
Ellen McGirt Yeah, I feel like that's where we really need to take care of the audience and the future audience and make sure people have the arts experience, the access to the flow experience, however it is, so that they'll choose it when it comes into their on their big and small screens.
Olivia Peebles I mean, this is something that I really, I think about nonstop, just on a personal level too, because I think about a movie being made by AI that it yeah, AI it would, its gonna, it's happening and we'll see them and I don't see the ability to emotionally connect to that type of material. I may be entertained for a short period of time, but I think that people seek more, and I have this dream that there will be some sort of backlash, and maybe it will encourage extremely creative indie filmmaking again, like we we may have a resurgence of really wild thinkers because of it's a reaction to this. And I notice even in myself, it's when I watch something that feels AI generated or it doesn't have the human touch, it feels- it makes me feel the same way as when I'm like, doomscrolling on Instagram in bed or something. And it's it's fine. It'- it's pleasant for a while. And then I feel numb and sort of stupid and disconnected, and I just wonder how long that can last me.
Ellen McGirt And so a similar question to that before we let you go. In terms of the industry, what what would be next for you? Where would you like to go in a broader sense, rather than just your next project, which I know is going to be great.
Olivia Peebles I really feel very comfortable in the realm of production design. Sometimes designers want to direct or produce. For me, in terms of, the industry in filmmaking, I would love to just continue to diversify my experiences and, make connections with-with people who make me feel like I'm part of art and, and make me feel excited to go to work. And I think that also that extends to outside of the industry and working as a designer. You know, I think it's very easy for us in this business to put our blinders on and just work, work, work. And with Covid and with the strikes, there have been a lot of stoppages in the recent years for me. And it's been a time of reflection. And, you know, everybody says this, but I feel more strongly about it now than ever. Just, being a practicing artist, both at work and at home and in the way that I live my life and trying to see things and, just be exposed to every type of experience, tha- art lecture, I mean, I just want to I want to be a little sponge because I see the benefit that it has on my job as somebody who is an observer and I take my my experience with the world and aid in putting it on on the screen, I think it it excites me just to, to be engaged, more engaged.
Jessica Helfand You know what that music means.
Ellen McGirt It's big swing, small wins time.
Jessica Helfand And I think you're going to take this one for the team this week. Ellen, what you got?
Ellen McGirt And I have an important one for the dog days of summer. In our hemisphere it's summertime and it's an unusually hot one with record breaking temperatures hitting the American west, east, south, well pretty much everywhere. So our big swing this episode is information, a new study by the nonprofit Climate Center, which you'll find in the show notes, has mapped the impact of a phenomenon called the urban heat island, which occurs when the built environment holds heat, making temperatures feel up to eight degrees Fahrenheit hotter than it would otherwise. Now urban sprawl, poor design is to blame, but the problem is particularly severe in poor and under-resourced neighborhoods in most cities, and that's what makes it an equity issue. I'm talking about fenceline communities which we discussed in episode three, poor communities who are next to big industrial facilities and hastily built with toxic materials, but also thanks to a history of segregation and redlining, many communities of color have long been heat islands, thanks to chronic underinvestment in parks, green space, heat absorbing materials and basic accommodations like air conditioning. And it's been killing people, poor people, for a long time. Here's one example, in New York City between 2000 and 2012, African Americans made up a quarter of the city's population, but nearly half its heat related deaths. And now that the weather is getting warmer everywhere, we can also expect climate related heat deaths to be on the rise. So if the big swing is information, then we're leaving the small wind up to you dear listener. If you live in a community with record breaking high temperatures, or you're noticing a community in need near you, do all the things. Check on your vulnerable neighbors. Make sure everyone's kids and pets are safe, of course, but if you can find out what services your municipality will be providing, whether it's cooling locations or air conditioner distributions, and amplify that on your social channels, it might not be the big redesign we need, but it could just save a life. And that's all from me.
Jessica Helfand Amazing. And I hope we actually do hear from some of our listeners. It would be wonderful to include that in in as an update in a future podcast and maybe in your newsletter.
Ellen McGirt Yeah, I would love that. We know that we're a wonderful DBBD community and we love hearing from you, but this really got my attention since we're focused on equity this season. That's all for today. We will see you back here in two weeks with another redesigner who is observing equity while transforming their community, their field, and our world.
Ellen McGirt The Design of Business | The Business of Design is a podcast from Design Observer.
Jessica Helfand Our show is written and produced by Alexis Haut. Our theme music is by Warner Meadows. Justin D Wright of Seaplane Armada mixed and mastered this episode. Thanks to Adina Karp and Focus Forward Podcast Studio in Providence for production support. Anyone you want to thank in addition?
Ellen McGirt I want to send a shout out to the amazing people at Figma who invited me out to speak at the Config conference in San Francisco with special thank you to my conversation Kevin Systrom. We'll drop my conversation with him in the show notes. It was one for the ages. And for more longform content about the people redesigning our world, please consider subscribing to our newsletters, Equity Observer and the Observatory at Design Observer dot com.
Ellen McGirt The Design of Business | the Business of Design is produced by Design Observer's editorial team. The views and opinions expressed by podcasts, speakers and guests are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of Deloitte or its personnel, nor does Deloitte advocate or endorse any individuals or entities featured on the podcast.
